Interview with Jürgen Sündermann

14 May 2024, by Kaja Scheliga (translated from the original interview in german)

Jürgen Sündermann was Director of the Center for Marine and Climate Research, which the Institute of Oceanography was part of, from 1989 to 2002. In this interview, he talks about his time at the institute, among other things.

How does it feel to be back in Hamburg, especially at the IfM?

Well, this is my scientific and working home. I started here at the Institute of Oceanography in 1962, which was quite a long time ago. Hamburg had just experienced a devastating storm surge and we carried out the first calculations to determine a safe dyke height for the future.

Jürgen Sündermann

As is common sense in an academic career, I didn't always work here at the institute. After my doctorate and habilitation, I worked in hydraulic engineering at the University of Hanover for seven years. I also spent a lot of time abroad. There used to be a research semester abroad, where you could go somewhere else for six months. I went to Hawaii, the Soviet Union and Italy and worked there, but my home was the Institute of Oceanography.

The institute was quite small when I started. The main focus was on theoretical oceanography, for example the modeling of ocean currents. There was practically no experimental oceanography.

We then developed all of this - right up to our own research vessel and finally remote sensing of the sea. This period in which the geosciences grew together in Hamburg and introduced a new style of cooperation by bringing together the various disciplines and working groups (the technicians, the scientific staff, the professors) and carrying out interdisciplinary projects, mostly paid for by third-party funding - that was simply great.

What are the moments that you remember most?

First of all, of course, after graduating, the application of physics and mathematics to the dynamics of the ocean and the inclusion of other geosciences such as meteorology and geophysics. Then the structure of university research and teaching. After all, it was the time of the movement from sixty-eight. When the university was reorganized, and that was particularly intense in Hamburg. I witnessed the legendary appearance of Rudi Dutschke, for example, and I was also one of the first to act as an assistant's representative in the faculty. The reforms at this university have been very positive, as we have developed a community spirit.

For example, the Special Research Area 94 - the largest that the DFG has ever funded - already had democratic features in this form. And it also demanded that the various scientific disciplines work together. You couldn't be indifferent to what the others were doing and you were also called to account to a certain extent if something wasn't going well there.
That had a huge impact on me later on. Likewise the cooperation with the neighboring disciplines, with the various marine science institutions in Hamburg.
A large community of marine-oriented, climate-relevant disciplines emerged, which also led to the founding of the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology.

In our preliminary discussion, you also mentioned that during your time at the IfM - and not only at the IfM - you promoted women and made sure that women were considered for leadership roles, for example for leading a working group or an expedition. What did that look like?

When I came here, in 1962, there were a lot of women at the Institute of Oceanography, but they were mainly graphing the numerical results. There were no plotters yet and we needed our own drawing department. It was about gaining insights into physics, but it was more of a technical job. In science, there were two colleagues from mathematics. In marine oceanography, I can only think of Gertrud Prahm at the German Hydrographic Institute. Physical marine research was basically a man's job.
In my time at the institute, when we had more and more third-party funded projects, we were looking for more people and so more and more women came to the institute, so that there were almost as many as men, oceanography could even have been a role model here.
Then we had the first woman at the top of the university, Professor Pfaff, as Vice President. She worked to ensure that women were represented more at the university. She also introduced the rule that the next vacant assistant professor position had to be filled by a woman if there was not yet a female professor at the institute, and I think that worked well. Once there was a research expedition with only women, which was special because this field was practically an all-male affair.

I think the institute has totally gained from this and I think men should also contribute and make sure that they are not alone among themselves. The movement should also be supported from the perspective of men. Science and the working spirit have gained from this synthesis.

What can be done to best support female scientists? Which aspects are the most important or the biggest levers and which are the most underexposed?

First of all, we have to assume that men and women are equally qualified and that we can expect just as much from both. And then, of course, we have to consider and address the challenges that families with children face. For example, by allowing men and women to work from home or to bring their children with them.
Of course, it should always be about qualifications. Nevertheless, women and men have different natures and, with a happy combination, this can promote the working atmosphere and scientific creativity. I am not a fan of all-male or all-female organisations.

In your opinion, what does it take to make northern Germany attractive for scientists, specifically in the field of physical oceanography?

First of all, of course, it's the sea that we have in the north.
Another attractive thing about Hamburg is that there are so many marine-oriented disciplines and institutions here - we tried to promote cooperation between the institutes back then. So this diversity of marine-oriented institutions definitely speaks for Hamburg. Another special feature is the Wadden area, which partially falls dry. For example, the first model with a movable coastline was developed here. The special thing about Hamburg is that the tides reach all the way to Hamburg. And still, the connection between science and application.

What recommendations would you give early career scientists for a successful career specifically in the field of oceanography?
Be open-minded. In other words, don't commit yourself to a specific topic, look left and right and also take an interest in what others are doing.

Thank you very much for the interview.

See also: Interview with Jürgen Sündermann (in German) by H. von Storch & H. Langenberg in HZG-Report 2019-1